ATBeta.com Updated Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:01 AM [Filed by Herok]
Atriarch's official beta site, www.ATBeta.com, has undergone a few cosmetic and structural changes over the last month as World Fusion tries to keep its mandate of more beta testing this year on track. Most notably, the site now includes a few utilities that will allow you to update old computer, address and email information.
Ethos Part II Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 11:30 AM [Filed by Herok]
Considering it a "back to the drawing board" on the Ethos of Atriarch, Serafina continues the conversation with the community (link points here at ATWatcher). Here's how she starts the second round of discussion:
In part 1 of my ethos post I said you wouldn't change my mind about building. Ok, so I was wrong. Wouldn't be the first time (but let's not spread that around... hehe) Anyway, many of you have convinced me that 'building' as an ethos just doesn't inspire. The thing that tipped the scale for me was this... when I say building, it makes the game sound like work rather than fun.
So, back to the drawing board. The Atriarch team knows what we mean when we say building, so it works fine for us to use internally. Externally, there has to be another way to convey it. I'm talking about a world where the player's can build it or at least contribute to it. However, it does not mean that the players build everything, because that makes it sound like players begin with a blank slate, or in this case a blank world, and fill it up from there. That is not the right impression either because the world of Atriana is full of culture and history.
I keep coming back to ask your opinions, because you have a very different perspective than I do. Atriarch came from my head. That alone will give me a different view. At some point, it will leave my head in some form or fashion and be available for everyone to make their own. At that point, it will be yours. Therefore, it is good to hear the views of players who will eventually be making Atriarch their own.
I like Origin's old slogan, "we create worlds" I wonder if there is a take on that somehow that would work. Players creating world. You create worlds. Make the world yours. Make it yours.
Of course, we can always go back to building... hehe Serafina Lead Game Designer Atriarch -More fun than humanly possible :-)
Atriarch.com Updated Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 12:25 AM [Filed by EdgeofEpsilon]
Serafina updated Atriarch.com today. She talked about the ongoing debates on several community forums.
In the weeks since we got back from the Game Developer's Conference, the Atriarch team has been participating in many ongoing discussions about Atriarch and games in general. We do not have official discussion boards on this site for now. Therefore, we do frequent the discussion boards of Atriarch community and fan sites. Everyone is welcome to participate in the discussions.
Currently active discussions include:
Defining Atriarch's Ethos: does 'building' capture its essence?
Coming Soon: Next week we will post information about the latest faction to join Atriarch's ranks, Daedral.
Agree to Disagree Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 1:15 PM [Filed by Herok]
Serafina returned to the ATW forums to assure the folk that they would have to go pretty far to get her dander up,
Terralos wrote: "I didn't mean to offend with that last post (it seems like I might have), If I did, my apologies"
*big grin* I've had publishers say to me that Atriarch isn't enough like EQ to succeed. I've had investors literally scream, yes scream, profanities at me in a public restaurant upset that I refused to hand over my life to them (yes, true incident). I've had some gamers mix us up with Dawn. LOL! Terralos, you'll have to do a lot more than just disagree with me to offend me
The one thing that will always be a common thread amongst everyone is that no one will ever agree on everything. The MOG community is not exactly an opinion-free lot If all I wanted was for you to agree with me, then I wouldn't post on the boards. I would stay happy and agreeable in my own little Serafina universe. If you happen to agree with me, fine. If you don't, please don't be shy... I ask that you be articulate (which you have), but by all means, don't be shy.
I won't always have time to debate everything, but I still listen to you. I won't always have time to justify every decision I make, but I still absorb your feedback. I won't always agree, but then wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed? *smile*
Anyway, this is a little off topic... please feel free to continue the building game debate
Fun - built to last Friday, March 21, 2003 - 5:50 AM [Filed by Herok]
In the ethos discussion over on the ATS forums, Camorandi raised the needs of the "builder" types focussing on the idea of creating permanence. Serafina replied,
Permanence... hmm... yes, that is a tough issue. I can see your point. The concept of how permanent (or not) something is will be one of those things we'll find out soon enough when we test... at least I think we will.
I anticipate that we will not need to have things permanent in the game. Take for example, UO... the houses there will decay and eventually go away if you don't keep them up. On the other hand, another player can't take over your house in UO. hmm.. I'm sure there is a line somewhere we can draw which will help.
The concept of Atriarch is that destruction is a lot more difficult than creation. It is not what we see in real-life, but then we want Atriarch to be more fun than real-life.
I know what you mean Friday, March 21, 2003 - 5:47 AM [Filed by Herok]
Here on the ATW forums, Terralos suggested that games such as SWG come with a built-in ethos and that players only garner the ethos of other games through play. Serafina responded thusly,
Thank you for bringing up your points.
I'll use one of the examples you gave, SWG.
You said the ethos of SWG is defined by the Star Wars movies. I would argue that the Star Wars movies define the world, not the game ethos. For example, there have been many many Star Wars games released over the past decade. All of them are from the Star Wars Universe, yet each of them are a different game. Each of the SW games has its own ethos, its own mission. I'm talking about defining a "game ethos" for Atriarch, not the story.
You also stated: "Everyone knows the goal even before the first meeting, because the ethos has been well defined by the Star Wars movies." I would argue that SWG can go many different directions with its game ethos. The ethos could be about fighting the evil empire. The ethos could be living in the Star Wars universe. Those are only two options for an ethos, yet depending on which you chose would send the game in a different direction. I hope that clears up a bit more of what I mean by game ethos.
Another good way to say game ethos would be game mission. What is the mission of the game? The questions you state at the end well stated and definitely questions the WF's team has asked ourselves more than once over the evolution of Atriarch.
As the dev team, our ethos is that Atriarch is a building game. That has always been our ethos, our mission. I do not think it has been clearly or precisely articulated though. I can see that saying, "it is a building game" may not inspire players when they first hear it. I'm not looking for a marketing phrase (although if it doubled as one, that would be icing on the cake). I'm looking for a solid foundation to give people. .. maybe describing it as an alien world building game is closer to its mark. Maybe saying it is about living and building in an alien world.
It is kind of weird. I thought that when I said Atriach is a building game that most people would think I meant a sim-city style game. While I was at GDC, when people asked me about Atriarch, I told them specifically this: "It is an mmorpg. It is a building game." Then I would inevitably feel like I should ad more, because they are going to think I mean something like I sim-city. So after a short pause, I would add, "I don't just mean building as in building buildings, but as in building communities and..." Every single time, and I mean every single time, I was cut off and the person smiled and said, "I know what you meant." That kind of suprised me, because I would have thought exactly what you did... that building game sounds like sim-city or something like that... maybe it was the fact that I began with, it's an mmorpg.
Ethos Purpii Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 5:09 AM [Filed by Herok]
Replying to the posters on ATV who tackled the ethos discussion there, Serafina said,
Yup, this is gonna be a long post.
It is good to see the responses. It definitely gives me food for thought. It also gives me some new perspectives. Let me give you a little more of where I'm coming from.
As I see it, there are two different purposes for an ethos:
1. to let everyone know what the game is about and what to expect utilizing a reasonable number of words (LOL! My usual description involves paragraphs... not good.)
2. to keep the development of Atriarch focused on what it is trying to accomplish, in other words, its ethos
****
Yes, Atriarch is a world. However, so is every other mog out there to varying degrees. I am not dismissing the concept, but the word itself. A couple years ago, being a "world" would have been enough, but today the word is overused. The definition of a "world" is now too broad. It doesn't really tell you anything about what sets the Atriarch world apart from, say the Star Wars world, Anarchy world, Eve world, and so on.
To me, the purpose of a game ethos is to make sure that there is a common thread in everything we do as the developer. It also acts as a built-in prioritizer. It keeps us focused on what we are trying to accomplish with Atriarch.
I'll give you an example... a tough one I think. Let's say there are two features that we want to add. They are both very cool, but we only have time to put in one for the intial release. The other will have to wait until after. The first feature is allowing players to set up governments in cities. The second feature is dynamic quests (as opposed to static fedex-style quests).
If we have a game ethos, we look to it for guidance. What is it we are trying to accomplish with the game? Let's say the game ethos is building. If that is the case, then the answer of which feature is simple. We do the governments and put dynamic quests in another time. Now, let's switch that around. Let's say our ethos is adventure. In this case, the answer would definitely be quests first and the government can wait.
What I am hoping you see in this example is that an ethos is a game's ally by always being true to itself. It is easy to go off in a billion different directions. Decisions between this or that are made on a constant, never-ending basis. That's the nature of building a "world". hehe No mog is ever done. There will always be more to add, more improvements, more features, etc. The question is what is that keeps us from moving chaotically in a million different directions all at once? How do we prioritize? The answer is in the game ethos.
****
I know that some people get worried when I say that Atriarch is a building game. They are concerned I mean the construction of buildings. The truth is that construction of buildings is in fact a good portion of what I'm talking about. The genesis of Atriarch is built precisely upon the premise that players will be able to construct buildings. It started as a very simple building-only game. Most other things were added after. That is where Atriarch was born. To be more specific, it started out as a medieval, human fort building game. Obviously, Atriarch has evolved into something more.
I like what Atriarch has evolved into. However, I think that during the evolution, what Atriarch is at its core has been clouded. In defining an ethos for it, my goal is to remove that cloud.
So, that brings me back to the core of Atriarch. What is its essence? We have a lot of features for Atriarch, some will be good and some will be lacking (at least initially). Every one of them are a feature that would fit well into a "world". I think what gives us our focus is the core of what Atriarch always was and is, a building game... yes, construction building.
Now, I want to make sure that I am clear about our goals for Atriarch. My goal is not to just put out a 3D sim-city. no no no no! Atriarch is an rpg world. I just think that building is at its core... construction building and world building.
ok, so for anyone who actually took an hour out of their life to read this entire post... I want to put the idea out there that you are the exception to the rule. You understand at least some of what we are trying to accomplish with Atriarch. That is partly why we all have so much trouble describing it.. there is so much we want to describe, so much we want to accomplish. Most people who play mog's don't know the differences between the games out there. They think they are all alike. That is why I think we need a simple word or two to describe Atriarch. It is ok if that couple of words doesn't cram in every single thing that Atriarch is or could be. Plucking out one concept is good enough I think. So maybe saying that Atriarch is a building game may not be sufficient... world building game... that has potential.
I should also clarify that when I say Atriarch is a building game. Actually, I first say that Atriarch is an mmorpg first, then I say building.
Anyway, it is getting late and I think I my sentences are starting to make less and less sense.
You are making me think. Thank you. Please keep up the responding and I'll do my best to keep scaring you.
Theme Park Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 4:57 AM [Filed by Herok]
Here at ATW, replying to Serafina's "ethos" thread, Xanvis started his comments with "...the point remains that I don't think a game needs to have an 'ethos' at all. Everything about the game should be attractive, should be a goal, a focus." Serafina promptly rebutted,
I agree with you and I don't. How convenient of me, eh? hehe
I agree with you that a game does not need an ethos given to it. Why? Because I believe that a game has an ethos whether we verbalize it or not. I just think it is better for us to verbalize it. It is basically the essense of what we want to accomplish with Atriarch. What I want to accomplish with Atriarch is building... the building of community, physical structures, cities, character, etc.
The truth is that most people want a simple description of a game, not a simple game. The difficulty in describing Atriarch is that we want to put in every possible feature, emotion, etc into it. Unfotunately, that ends up giving so much information that a person leaves confused rather than a concrete concept of what Atriarch is about.
I think that people in this community who read the boards and who follow mog's understand the differences between each game. You all understand the subtelties in gameplay, etc. However, you are the exception. Most people just want to be told a simple description. If from that very brief one or two-word description they are intrigued, then they will take the time to learn more... that is one of the reasons to verbalize an ethos for Atriarch. And I think that a one or two-word ethos is sufficient. We don't have to describe ALL that Atriarch is, just enough to capture the essense of it.
Ethos Building Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 5:21 AM [Filed by Herok]
Still fired up from GDC, Serafina started a thread on the ATW forums looking to encourage discussion on the "ethos" of Atriarch,
Raph Koster of UO and SWG fame was one of the speakers that I went to hear at GDC. He said something that hit home with me. He said that every game needs an ethos. In other words, every game needs to know what it is about and capture that for the players. Almost every game eventually comes to be known for something. If I say, EQ, UO, AC, AO.. or any number of games out there, you have an idea of the game's ethos (whether you like the ethos or not, it is still there).
Right now, Atriarch is known as a lot of things. I think it is known as too many things, so much so that at times it is confusing for new people. I hear things like this all the time, "Cool game, what's it about again?" Tyring to explain it in a sentence or less is difficult. Why? Because Atriarch is different. There isn't something out there I can point to and say, it is like this. When Raph spoke about game ethos, this entire issue with Atriarch hit home with me. Atriarch isn't going to do everything well, so why even try to say we will. I came home from GDC fired up with a new mission: look closely at Atriarch and find its ethos!
When Atriarch carves a place in people's minds, what exactly is it carving? I wanted it to carve something clear and deep. So what is the essence of Atriarch? I asked that question a million times in a million different ways. I got a lot of answers, but there was a common thread. Being the clever person that I am recognized the thread and said, ah ha! the absolute essence of Atriarch is that it is a building game. It is a place where you build your houses. It is a place where you build factions, guilds, families and community. It is a place where you build your world. It a place to build your life. To me, Atriarch is about building.
I've heard many people talk about Atriarch as being an all encompassing world. Many people say that is what Atriarch is about. You know, I agree with that. In fact, making it a world is what what we've been trying to accomplish from the start. The problem is that all the games say that. Every game out there claims to be a "world". LOL! Of course, not every game claims to be an alien world So, that doesn't really tell anyone anything special about Atriarch.
oh, ok, so this is about marketing you ask now? No, it is much more than that. It is about mission and focus and having a stable base upon which the game is built. What is at Atriarch's core? To me, the stable core from which everything else flows in Atriarch is building.
Now when people ask me what Atriarch is about, I don't go into a long description or a feature list or about the alien world. Rather, I simply say, it is a building game. I can always elaborate from there if someone wants to know more
I will at some point, probably post my vision of Atriarch's Ethos on the official site. However, first I would like to get your feedback. It won't change my mind about how I see Atriarch. However, it will give me an idea of how you see Atriarch.
Thrill of the Hunt Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 5:01 AM [Filed by Herok]
BasBara started a thread over on the ATV forums about questioning why MMOGs don't handle Monster AI realistically. Serafina gave her response as a means of furthering and encouraging the discussion,
OMIGOD, I love this topic! This is exactly one of the debates we have when designing Atriarch.
There is so much more involved in hunting than there is to just killing something. Hunting is strategic; killing (as done in many games) is tactical at best.
I would love to see a discussion about what you think the benefits and disadvantages of a killing system vs. a hunting system in Atriarch. Should it be closer to one or the other? Should it be a hybrid? By hunting, I mean, less kills, more work and longer time. It also means that kills would be worth something and strategy would be involved.
Hunting takes a long time. Is it too long for people to have fun in an online game? Actually, something taking a long time doesn't concern me. What concerns me more are player's expectations from other games. Will we be able to overcome them? By that I mean, player's are trained to come into an online world and the first thing they do is kill... over and over and over and over. It takes a relatively short time and has little to no consequences. Would real hunting be more fun? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to hear your discussion on it. Maybe I'll post it as a question of the week next week or two.
An interesting tidbit about GDC and A.I. Our AI Engineer, TheFerg, was the only other person to go with me to GDC. We didn't hang out much... he hung more with the AI programming crowd from other games while I hung out with... well, just about everyone :-) Anyway, I digress. I asked him at the end if he learned anything interesting from how other games are doing their A.I. There are a lot of really great games out there with some fun A.I., mostly single-player games though. He said, well no I didn't find anything useful at all. When I asked him why not, he said, "I couldn't find one game, single player or multiplayer, approaching the issue of A.I. the same way we are. That means our A.I. is either going to kick everyone's ass or well, not." Of course, I vote for kicking ass, but since it isn't done yet, I guess we'll see.
Serafina
The Next Coming Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 4:07 AM [Filed by Herok]
Oft-time lurker Basbara returned to the ATV forums to praise Atriarch and World Fusion for its tenacity and in turn was met with some groovy comments from Serafina,
I have only one thing to say to that... thanks! and I love you!!!!
ok ok, so when have I only had only one thing to say... yes, we are committed to releasing Atriarch. World Fusion breeds 'em with tenacity and resilience. Being the underdogs that we are, I've heard a few of our "critics" use other more colorful terms to describe our "tenacity".
I have to agree with you, Atriarch may not turn gaming's ear on its face at release, but over time we will kick ass. We plan to be the game that eventually all the publishers who ever turned us down tries to clone ;-)
As with every game ever released, Atriarch will probably not be everything everyone expects right from the start. Some features will have more depth than others. Some features will be missing and some will be there that were never even mentioned. That's just the way it goes with games. The best part about online worlds is that they are never ever done. A live release is not the end, it is merely the opening of a world that will continue to evolve in gameplay, culture, and players. Over time, we hope to see Atriarch become one of those games that no one saw coming. Of course, they would be wrong, because obviously we all here see it coming and are tuned into the possibilites :-)
ATBeta.com Updated Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 7:31 AM [Filed by Herok]
ATBeta.com was updated to offer an update to the beta application form and some utilities to modify your information. Currently you can update your e-mail and/or change your game/access password but World Fusion plans to include (some time in April) another utility that allows you to change your computer specs.
Looks like things are moving again; we'll keep you informed.
Hibernation mode off Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 5:34 AM [Filed by Herok]
Serafina reassured people on the ATS forum that a year definitely made a difference to Atriarch...
Heya... yes, I know the "slow, but surely" answer is a real pain in the ass. It may be hard to believe, but it is even more a pain in the ass from this end. (hmm... that just doesn't sound right... hehe)
Anyway, there was nothing I could do about it. We had legal problems go on for two years that killed any semblence of progress during that entire time. Toward the end of April, we will send out a press release letting everyone know that our legal issues have been resolved and things are back on track. Now when people ask me how Atriarch is doing, I can finally finally finally answer something other than slowly, but surely :-) In fact, my answer is: EXCELLENT! We are doing Excellent! No one is more happy about that than I am!
Wow Defined Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 3:57 AM [Filed by Herok]
Continuing the discussion here at ATW about the "wow" factor, Serafina agreed with fans about the possible reasons for the effect from others at GDC:
Like you said, I think the wow's were for the possibilities. Althought the depth isn't there is gameplay yet, you immediately get a sense that there the world itself has depth. hehe... and yes, the people I showed this to already know about Atriarch, so they of course, are projecting their possibilities into the world... some of which may or may not be accurate expectations. We have yet to see.
I also think that the wow's were for the imagery in our world. Yes, our graphics aren't the best, but our imagery is awesome. (That's a totally objective opinion too... *grin*). Even without things like shadows and light maps, the world is different. It isn't like anything anyone has seen. Yes, there are screenshots, but it just isn't the same as being in the world.
When beta starts up again, we'll see for ourselves.
Which is the Middle-Finger on an Eshlar? Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 8:19 PM [Filed by Herok]
Serafina replied on the ATV forums about whether more game innovations are emerging when developers gather at GDC. She replied,
Actually, I was showing them Pallidrost, the Tyrusin Arena. That area is our standard demo and test area.
As far as what other companies are doing, yes there are some innovative games in development. However, there is a long list of reasons why certain features are not seen often or at all. The number one reason is financial viability.
For most games, deciding to have certain features can determine the financial success versus financial ruin of the game. That is the unfortunate side of the game business. There are some decisions that must be made if you are going to be financially succeed.
I'll write up a post about it some time next week about why online world companies make the decisions they do on some key points.
Atriarch is basically giving the finger to a lot of these tightly-held conventions, but even we have to heed a few of them or our finger will be the last thing you see in the air as we sink into the tar pits ;-)
Thanks Serafina!
Atriarch--Wow! Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 1:56 AM [Filed by Herok]
Returning from GDC (annual Game Developer Conference on the west coast), Serafina reported the latest developer reactions to Atriarch,
Hello All!
Today I got back from a week at the Game Developer's Conference. It was a great week. I met with lots of other game developers, attended many lectures and roundtables on game design. If I have a chance, I will write up a review of some of the sessions I attended.
We did a few demos of Atriarch. The word I heard most often was, "Wow"
I won't lie, I like hearing that and would like to leave it at that. However, being a game designer, I am compelled to dive deeper into the why. Maybe they were just impressed with the laptop color. I could be misinterpretting the wow's.
So, why were people's reactions all similar when they first enter Atriarch? There are lots of reasons not to be wow'd. We certainly do not have the best graphics engine out there. We still have most of the gameplay waiting to be put in. The music is pretty good, but it wasn't working at the time of the demo. I ran it on a on slow, small laptop with a crappy 3D card. Yet, everytime I opened up Atriarch and our character entered the world, the reaction was the same... eyes got big, they leaned in a little closer toward the screen as their jaw dropped slowly to inevitably whisper "wow."
Instead of trying to figure out myself why I would get this reaction, I just asked. According to the people who have seen it, the world of Atriana feeds the player's imagination. Although we are closer to the sci-fi genre, we embody what fantasy worlds are all about... a sense of wonder! Atriarch captures a sense of epicness and wonder that is lacking in most other worlds. Some time this year, we hope to start testing again so more can begin to experience Atriarch's sense of wonder.
We have been quiet lately about Atriarch. All you following Atriarch are painfully aware of this. Starting toward the end of April, we have a plan to slowly start bringing you this sense of wonder more and more through community interaction and updates. There is some exciting things planned for this year. I will be glad if you are all a part of it :-)
Thanks for the update Serafina!
New Comix Friday, March 7, 2003 - 4:03 AM [Filed by Herok]
Terralos finally published his Atriarch-related comix over at ATV. Go check it out and encourage him to release more into the wild!
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